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12:15:04 <pamri>	karunakar: is the meet there, today?
12:19:52 <karunakar>	sort of lets start discussing
12:20:10 ---	karunakar has changed the topic to: INDEV meet - 12-6PM
12:20:21 <karunakar>	lets begin with locales
12:20:40 <karunakar>	esp collation sequence - thats missing
12:22:30 <pamri>	does ICU define collation rules also?
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12:46:30 <mary>	sorry guys... really bad conn today... 
12:46:30 <mary>	btw is this chat thingy being logged ?
12:47:28 <mary>	pamri: alive ?
12:48:11 <pamri>	mary: yeah.
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13:01:07 <karunakar>	mary_at_lunch: yeah
13:01:20 <karunakar>	pamri: yeah
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13:07:07 <mary>	whatever happened to the thread on collation sequences ?
13:14:25 <karunakar>	its on
13:14:37 <pamri>	mary: seem to be pretty impatient today.?
13:14:53 <mary>	pamri: was wondering if i had missed something and all.. 
13:15:07 <karunakar>	ICU has some definitions for hindi, telugu etc
13:15:28 <mary>	can someone summarize the current situation with collation sequences for the lesser mortals :-)
13:15:34 <pamri>	can the same locale be used for bsd?
13:15:47 <mary>	may be we can then take it and make a todo thingy ... for each topic..
13:15:53 <pamri>	arun has created a hindi locale for bsd
13:20:50 <karunakar>	mary: ya will do that
13:20:58 <karunakar>	pamri: links?
13:21:21 <pamri>	mary: to?
13:21:42 <karunakar>	pamri: link to the hindi locale for bsd
13:22:01 <karunakar>	hindi locale is there in glibc but lacks collation
13:22:52 <pamri>	http://www.sharma-home.net/~adsharma/projects/hi_IN/
13:23:11 <pamri>	it is for iscii..shd convert it to utf-8.
13:23:43 <pamri>	mary: http://www.sharma-home.net/~adsharma/projects/hi_IN/iscii-dev/
13:25:35 <pamri>	a good intro to creating locales on freebsd: http://www.topolis.lt/squirrelmail/freebsd/
13:25:57 <mary>	pamri: use the script .. hehe
13:27:18 <pamri>	mary: yup. we need a script which converts fr. dev utf-8 to other indic utf-8. eg: unicode val of dev A to corresponding A of any indic language
13:27:25 <karunakar>	pamri: here were are dealing with locales on linux - glibc ones
13:27:53 <karunakar>	pamri: why that script
13:28:58 <mary>	pamri: iscii -> utf8 is tho straight forward.. and also converting to interconverting between indian languages is also easy because they are based on iscii and differ mostly only by multiples of constant offsets ..
13:29:16 <pamri>	for eg: you can convert hindi locale to kannada locale...or a dev keymap to kan keymap..
13:29:38 <karunakar>	currently glibc has - hindi, telugu, tamil & arabic + english for indic
13:30:29 <pamri>	this script does it fr. dev to kannanda http://www.sharma-home.net/~adsharma/projects/kn_IN/localify.py creating one isn't a rocket-science
13:30:40 <karunakar>	malayalam, kannada also developed , gujrati & punjabi untested
13:32:50 <pamri>	why has kannada not been submitted to glibc..only thing it lacks is the collation seq.
13:33:33 <karunakar>	ok, but it can still go in
13:33:55 <karunakar>	considering the slow release cycles of glibc
13:34:13 <karunakar>	if you have it included now - it may turn up in production ones next yr
13:36:52 <pamri>	ok. how to do it
13:37:24 <pamri>	we cld have done it last october. anyway, it was ready. & no changes have been made.
13:39:51 <karunakar>	i too donno - will chek that out
13:40:58 <karunakar>	Ok there are three issues here 1) getting the proper sort order (from diff sources)
13:41:01 <pamri>	other languages cld use this script: http://www.sharma-home.net/~adsharma/projects/kn_IN/localify.py
13:41:40 <karunakar>	 2: writing the collation data in actual form required ( in LANG_IN file )
13:42:07 <karunakar>	 3: Testing 
13:43:42 <karunakar>	pamri: actually its a easy job once you write down the data on paper
13:44:29 <karunakar>	the way the month names & weekday names differ slightly  in diff langs
13:44:50 <karunakar>	pamri: does kannada locale has collation seq now?
13:45:49 <pamri>	nopr
13:46:24 <pamri>	actually, there are diff sorting orders in kannada. the same confusion that happened in font-encoding has also happened here.
13:47:06 <pamri>	the kgp collation seq seems to be sound.
13:48:37 <karunakar>	pamri: then can ya create a unicode seq of it
13:48:58 <karunakar>	kind of this way http://www.unicode.org/charts/collation/chart_Bengali.html
13:49:17 <karunakar>	that will serve as startin pt for it
13:50:32 <karunakar>	mary: can ya chek up with hindi guys there if this is good enough  http://www.unicode.org/charts/collation/chart_Devanagari.html
13:52:19 <pamri>	shdn't consonants with halanth be first.
13:54:30 ---	You are now known as karunakarLUNCH
13:54:41 <karunakarLUNCH>	will be back in 10mins
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14:25:48 <mary>	karunakar: none of them are around .. will check and let you know..
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14:27:45 <karunakar>	mary: ok
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14:37:22 <goli>	hi mary and karunakar!
14:37:33 <goli>	here is a small update
14:38:40 <goli>	a friend of joseph koshy called "Cherry" has joined MAHITI as a volunteer. he is working on a package management system so that we will be able to deploy indic solutions with multiple dependencies more easily. 
14:39:12 <goli>	i am not sure i completely understand this project or its relevance to the cause of indic computing.
14:39:26 <goli>	but koshy thinks that this is a non negotiable and i am happy to go with what he says at the moment.
14:39:32 <goli>	end of small update
14:40:13 <mary>	goli: package management system ?
14:40:48 <karunakar>	goli: whats it based on?
14:40:53 <pamri>	mary: not package mgt. but on freebsd, he is using the ports system to deliver indic packages.
14:41:02 <karunakar>	ok
14:43:18 <pamri>	see this: http://sourceforge.net/projects/indic-computing
14:43:18 <goli>	karunakar: not sure. pramod will have more details.
14:43:31 <goli>	karunakar: i guess shell programming plus some python scripts
14:45:12 <pamri>	from the rel notes: "A FreeBSD 'port' that installs the necessary tools to process Indic Computing documentation. "
14:47:01 <karunakar>	goli: so its not nything debian based or linux based ?
14:47:32 <pamri>	we can use this s/w http://abeni.sourceforge.net/ to create a similar system for gentoo.
14:48:05 <mary>	karunakar: i am sure the toolkit/chain will be generic .. except that the primary development platform would be freebsd ..
14:48:58 <pamri>	mary: yup, correct. testing will be done on debian & hurd. :-)
14:50:25 <mary>	okie.. for starters .. regarding the collation sequences and all that
14:50:37 <mary>	can we start with introductory links / texts .. and issues (links) and all...
14:50:37 <mary>	i will compile them.
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14:51:20 <karunakar>	ya, was writing something on it will send that
14:52:46 <mary>	for starters, http://oss.software.ibm.com/icu/userguide/Collate_Intro.html
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14:57:11 <karunakar>	more so the format of locale file : http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/7908799/xbd/locale.html
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15:07:47 <mary>	[OT] is anyone able to access indic-computing cvs ?
15:18:51 <karunakar>	anonymous nyone can, write access only to developers
15:19:18 <mary>	karunakar: grrr.. i am unable to get anything via cvs.. wondering why ..
15:20:43 <goli>	mary: contact jkoshy
15:23:14 <mary>	more on collation stuff like currently available locales etc ? .. guys wakie wakie
15:24:21 <karunakar>	mary: you can do a anonymous check out
15:24:55 <karunakar>	mary: there is one pdf doc which describes it all - i have it with me but cant get its online link
15:25:24 <karunakar>	basically the locale definition guidelines / specification
15:25:38 <karunakar>	a confusing doc at that
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15:34:09 <mary>	karunakar: is it the one from sun ?
15:34:30 ---	karunakar has changed the topic to: INDEV meet - 12-6PM - Indic locale + collation
15:34:36 <karunakar>	nope, some ISO doc
15:35:34 -->	alok_kumar (~chatzilla@61.1.144.145) has joined #indlinux
15:35:44 <alok_kumar>	(.8M$G
15:36:09 <alok_kumar>	hello indlinux
15:36:17 <alok_kumar>	Alok from Bangalore
15:37:05 <karunakar>	its this http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg20/docs/n897-14652w25.pdf
15:37:24 <karunakar>	from http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg20/docs/projects.html
15:37:44 <alok_kumar>	Are you folks able to see &G5(>0@?
15:38:00 <Bunny>	yeah
15:38:16 <Bunny>	alok_kumar: welcome to indlinux
15:38:47 <alok_kumar>	Thanks Bunny.
15:39:54 <karunakar>	linux locales at http://www.openi18n.org/download/docs/locale/index.htm
15:40:46 <alok_kumar>	Hi karunakar
15:40:51 <karunakar>	alok_kumar: hi
15:40:53 <karunakar>	Bunny: hi
15:41:15 <Bunny>	karunakar: hi
15:41:18 <karunakar>	the discussion are for completing the Indic locale definitions
15:41:38 <alok_kumar>	kok_IN ? They have 3 letter codes as well?
15:41:45 <karunakar>	some locales are defined in glibc, but none has sort order ( collation data )
15:41:53 <karunakar>	yeah
15:41:58 <alok_kumar>	Ok, great.
15:42:21 <karunakar>	We need to compile locale data for languages not yet available 
15:42:23 <Bunny>	how many hours of work is it?
15:42:28 <karunakar>	and collation data for all langs
15:42:54 <karunakar>	not much - all could be done in a week , weith one person looking into each lang
15:43:12 <alok_kumar>	Collations can get quite complex
15:43:30 <karunakar>	main work is compiling the locale data, basic data & then collation data
15:43:49 <karunakar>	alok_kumar: yeah, but we need to start somewhere & have atleast he basic stuff
15:44:10 <alok_kumar>	I was scared off by http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/tr10-8.html if that's what we would have to do for collation.
15:44:17 <karunakar>	you cant do a sort on a hindi utf-8 file
15:44:42 <alok_kumar>	karunakar: Correct.
15:45:28 <alok_kumar>	Actually grep works on RH8, but I think it does a byte by byte comparision.
15:45:49 <alok_kumar>	What's the work left for hi_IN.UTF-8? Is there a todo somewhere on http://indlinux.org ?
15:46:28 <karunakar>	alok_kumar: writing that only :)
15:46:49 <alok_kumar>	Oh 
15:47:21 <Bunny>	Do I have to be good at the language to do basic data (with out collation data)? I am planning to help for telugu (if no one else takes up the task)
15:47:26 <karunakar>	i do hav modified file - from which rough gujarati & punjabi ones were made
15:47:44 <karunakar>	Bunny: was just abt to ask you for same
15:50:46 <alok_kumar>	Perhaps I could help with sa_IN.UTF-8
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15:52:36 <ding0>	hi guys
15:52:54 <alok_kumar>	Hi ding0
15:53:16 <alok_kumar>	I'm going off to login from the linux side. See you in a couple of minutes.
15:53:17 <karunakar>	alok_kumar: ya
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15:57:21 <alok_kumar>	Back
15:58:59 <alok_kumar>	Say, isn't Milan supposed to have the hi_IN.UTF-8 locale?
15:59:15 <karunakar>	it has
15:59:31 <alok_kumar>	locale -a|grep IN gives me ar, en, mr, ta and te but not hi. Funny
15:59:51 <alok_kumar>	Maybe that's why I'm getting the gkb error.
15:59:58 <karunakar>	hi, ta, te, mr are already available
16:00:09 <karunakar>	ok, maybe
16:05:23 <alok_kumar>	hi_IN was already around(timestamped 13 May in /usr/lib/locale) so I think inslocale.sh skipped localedef for hi_IN.
16:05:27 <karunakar>	hmm, a bug in the install script !
16:05:32 <alok_kumar>	I installed Milan on 10 Jun
16:05:40 <karunakar>	yeah
16:06:02 <alok_kumar>	Does redhat 8 ship with hi_IN? Maybe that's why it was skipped.
16:07:14 <Bunny>	redhat does I guess
16:07:48 <karunakar>	yeah , it does since rh 7.3 , but only gets installed is you select it while installation (or select all langs)
16:08:56 <karunakar>	so in the script it checks if its already installed , if not its built
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16:23:24 <alok_kumar>	Reinstalled Milan, no hi_IN is also there.
16:23:39 <alok_kumar>	s/no /now /
16:29:27 <karunakar>	ok
16:29:42 <karunakar>	all: got some more clue to collation stuff
16:32:28 <karunakar>	in http://www.openi18n.org/download/  in locale/src it has LC_COLLATE.ISO14651 
16:32:39 <mary>	karunakar: are you asking us or trying to say something ? :-)
16:32:42 <karunakar>	collation table which include indic stuff
16:32:52 <karunakar>	saying something
16:33:40 <karunakar>	a iso14652_t1 exists /usr/share/i18n/locales which doesnt include indic ranges
16:34:03 <karunakar>	& all indic locales at present copy this file for LC_COLLATE categ.
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16:37:02 <karunakar>	this data seems to come from UCA & ibm univ locales
16:52:13 <karunakar>	i am extracting the indic ones from the LC_COLLATE file
16:52:29 <karunakar>	we will have to chek if they are proper & acceptable
17:01:36 <karunakar>	nyone listening?
17:03:12 <mary>	sorry... was trying to google for more info and all
17:05:26 <mary>	karnunakar: what exactly do you need from the hindi guys .. regarding collation ?
17:06:01 <karunakar>	read abv, there is some collation info, need to verify if its ok & acceptable
17:06:26 <karunakar>	if it conforms to any standard available
17:07:20 <karunakar>	or find if we have any standard for hindi on collation
17:07:50 <karunakar>	am i being to vague?
17:09:35 <mary>	karunakar: how do i convey it to someone who doesnt really understand the technicalities .. thats all
17:09:42 <mary>	karunakar: i will try the sorting angle to explain things
17:09:53 <mary>	karunakar: will be back in 15 mins
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17:18:55 <karunakar>	mary_away: ok i will take care of that - will list what information is needed & the simplest form to give in
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18:02:16 <mary>	anybody home .. 
18:02:28 <mary>	current devel directions for indlinux ?
18:02:45 <mary>	anything about the new developments in Qt ?
18:14:59 <karunakar>	yup, installing debian
18:15:21 -->	pamri (~pamri@PPP-219-65-143-155.bng.vsnl.net.in) has joined #indlinux
18:15:24 <karunakar>	locales is a long pendng issue - need to get that fixed
18:17:54 <karunakar>	pamri: got one table having UCA data
18:18:45 <pamri>	ok. update me more.
18:19:16 <mary>	anyways ... 
18:19:28 <mary>	gotta leave .. 
18:19:28 <mary>	ciao 
18:19:49 <karunakar>	http://www.openi18n.org/download/  in locale/src it has LC_COLLATE.ISO14651 
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18:25:20 <pamri>	ok. does it contain collation info for indic languages too.
18:26:50 <karunakar>	yeah - all those in unicode
18:27:47 <pamri>	ok. we shd strip info for each language & put it on indlinux
18:28:01 <karunakar>	yeah almost done that
18:28:34 <karunakar>	what i will do is add them in locale def files & build & test
18:29:21 <pamri>	ok. also put them seperately too.
18:31:12 <karunakar>	yeah
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18:58:21 <karunakar>	I have put some locale stuff at http://www.indlinux.org/downloads/locale/
18:58:47 <karunakar>	Will have the docs & howto ready by tuesday